If you’re an online person — and you’re here, after all, so duh — you’re aware of the heightened level of controversy over the SIG SAUER P320 platform pistols, which include the US military’s M17 and M18 models. This latest acceleration in extraordinarily bad word of mouth was triggered by an incident in which an Air Force airman was killed, reportedly by his M18 duty gun. The circumstances surrounding the death are under investigation and the Air Force Global Strike Command has “paused” the use of M18s until more is known, but it’s grabbed a lot of people’s attention.
For its part, after an initial brief acknowledgement of the Air Force incident, SIG SAUER issued a long, detailed defense of the P320 and its many variants. The company stated . . .
The P320 pistol is one of the safest, most advanced pistols in the world -meeting and exceeding all industry safety standards. Its design has been thoroughly tested and validated by the U.S. Military and law enforcement agencies at the federal, state and local levels. In addition, the P320 has been rigorously tested, and is currently in use by militaries and law enforcement agencies around the world. …
The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear. This has been verified through exhaustive testing by SIG SAUER engineers, the U.S. Military, several major federal and state law enforcement agencies, and independent laboratories.
However, the death of the Air Force airman and the Global Strike Command‘s “pause” seemed to set off a cascade of reactions by retailers, training facilities, and competitive associations around the country. Many — some of them prominent in the industry — have made the decision to stop selling P320 pistols and/or ban them from their ranges and classes.
This, of course, is really the culmination of more than eight years of varying degrees of controversy involving the modular P320 and its design. While the bad PR and negative word-of-mouth about the platform have certainly escalated in the last two weeks, SIG SAUER has been fighting negative perceptions about the P320 since 2017 when the gun’s drop-safety issues first came to light.
We and others covered the problem and SIG’s response to it in great detail. The company didn’t issue a recall of the guns at the time, they instead offered owners of P320s a “voluntary upgrade” to install the fix they devised for the drop-safety issue.
In the intervening years, the company has been the target of a range of lawsuits claiming the P320 is prone to “uncommanded discharges.” In plain English, plaintiffs claimed their P320 just “went off” without the trigger being pulled, sometimes while still in a holster.
The reality is, all gun companies are the targets of these types of suits to one degree or another. SIG has stated all along that (post-upgrade) P320 pistols can’t be fired without the trigger being pulled and the company has successfully defended itself against most of the suits, either getting them dismissed or winning jury verdicts. Until recently.
In the mean time, there was a constant, low background hum of questions in the firearms community over the safety of the P320 per se, what happens when it’s carried in certain holsters, when it has a weapon-mounted light, yadda, yadda, yadda. And then the airman was killed in Wyoming.
That set off the current firestorm in which SIG finds itself today. In addition to names like Gunsite, A Girl & A Gun, IDPA, the GlockStore and many others deciding to ban all P320 variants, a gaggle of traffic-hungry YouTubers have gone to work trying to unwrap this Gordian knot themselves. We’ve seen attempts on both sides that purport to show the P320 is either incredibly dangerous or it’s every bit as safe as any other striker-fired pistol on the market.
The reality is…we don’t know which is true. Also, neither do you. And in the end, it probably doesn’t matter any more.
SIG SAUER finds itself today in an incredibly difficult position. They’ve been defending (after first fixing) their popular P320 platform pistols — sometimes to mixed reviews — for almost a decade now. And who can blame them? They’ve sold between two and three million units since it was introduced. It’s been one of the most popular handguns in the world and no doubt has been very profitable for the company.
Again, SIG will eagerly tell anyone who will listen that the P320 can’t fire without the trigger being pulled and that despite the rumors, the claims, and the lawsuits — not to mention lots of very motivated plaintiffs attorneys — no one has been able to demonstrate otherwise. Also, many have and continue to argue that all of the swirling controversy around the P320’s safety isn’t as significant as it seems because it’s mostly limited to the gun-o-sphere, firearm geeks, nerds and the extremely online.
The trouble now is, with an increasing number of ranges, retailers, trainers and competition leagues prohibiting the guns, doubts about the P320 will increasingly filter down to the average consumer. Plus, we’re seeing more anecdotal examples like this one:
We’ve seen reports of a number of retailers pulling P320 pistols from their shelves. They’ve made the calculation that the perceived risk of selling a gun that may have a safety problem isn’t worth any incremental revenue, particularly when there is no shortage of excellent competitive alternatives on the market.
On the other side of the ledger we talked to one large midwest retailer who tells us he’s still selling the P320 and allowing them on his range. He said he read SIG’s statement on the gun’s safety and, until proven otherwise, if a customer wants to buy a P320, he’s going to sell it to him. He stated pretty clearly that “a YouTube video of some guy sticking drywall screws into a P320 trigger” isn’t going to affect his business decisions.
That said, he also told us his P320 sales are down about 40% year-over-year (while his overall pistol business is down 10%). He also confided that he’s reduced his P320 inventory to the bare minimum, just one or two pistols. He said distributor inventories are plenty high and he’ll just order them as and when a customer wants one.
And that’s the crux of the problem. Whatever the reality is regading the gun’s inherent safety, the P320 brand is being (and has been) badly damaged. Maybe irreparably so.
While the average gun buyer may still not be aware of any of the news swirling around the P320, retailers certainly are. And you have to believe that — like that dealer we talked to — they’re going to either stop selling the pistols entirely or they’re going to greatly limit their exposure in terms of on-hand inventories.
You know who else has heard the latest about the P320? Law enforcement agencies. SIG SAUER sells a lot of P320s to police departments, sheriffs departments, departments of conservation, and many more. If you’re a procurement officer who’s in the market for duty pistols, there is zero perceived risk in choosing GLOCK, M&P, FN, or almost any other brand. But given the latest news about the P320, what incentive is there now to making that your choice? If you’re the decision-maker, why would you take that risk?
In other words, at some point, rightly or wrongly, the P320 may be too damaged to be saved as a viable commercial product.
SIG SAUER already makes another incredibly popular modular platform pistol that doesn’t have whispers of safety issues swirling around it — the P365. And it’s now made in every size from micro-compact to duty-size. So if you’re a retailer, why wouldn’t you steer customers away from the P320 and toward the P365 (or the Springfield Echelon or some other gun)? What are the odds that’s already happening in gun stores across the country? Why (their thinking will no doubt be) assume the potential risk of selling a gun that people increasingly believe — justifiably or not — isn’t safe?
That’s the dilemma SIG SAUER is in right now. No matter how much they defend the safety of the P320, it may not matter any more. And then there’s the larger reputational damage the entire P320 affair is doing to the SIG SAUER brand as a whole as this continues to drag out.
At some point, if the current trend continues, the P320 simply won’t be salvageable. And that point may already be in the past.
I think that’s a correct assessment. This is the last straw; there’s too much noise. I watched some of the linked video showing the P320 firing by applying slight pressure on the trigger and slide. It fires without pulling the trigger. Are new P320s really that loose? I take back what I said earlier; I wouldn’t even want one with a manual safety.
Back to GI carry on an empty chamber?
Any sympathy went out the window with the “It ends today.” declaration. Gaslighting at its best/worst. They chose their hill; they chose poorly.
Yeah, Sig took a big hit on the P320.
What they should have done or not done, what happened or did not happen, if its true or not, who did what or how or when or where or why – at this point its probably a moot point for Sigs reputation on the P320.
My own P320’s, never been able to get them to fire ‘uncommanded’ despite doing all the things people say that can make it happen. Don’t know why that is, but I’m going to hang on to them anyway. I EDC a P365 X-Macro TacOps now and am happy with it and really like it, never did fire my P320’s all that much and never EDC’d them.
Yes, SIG may be taking a hit, but it’s going to be a lot of business and profit for other gun companies that supply the future orders for its replacement in both civilian and military spheres. Which makes me wonder, given the modern corporate structure of companies being owned by other entities and then the other entities being owned by some giant multinational investment company like Blackrock, wouldn’t it be clever to manufacture this problem and then profit from it? Does Blackrock or some such own shares in more than one gun company? You never heard of a prize fighter taking a “dive”? The ones who did always had a friend place money on their challenger, so as to get paid twice.
I hope there really is something wrong with the design. Otherwise to lose so much of your reputation to a bunch of online idiots screeching “see, if I jam this screw in here, smack it with a mallet here, bring the trigger back to the wall and sing Salt n Pepa’s Push It the gun just goes off!” is a real shame.
What about all the instances of P320’s going off IN THE HOLSTERS while not being handled? Video proof exists. It’s more than hypothetical; we have a dead serviceman now.
What about them? So far no defect or parts failures have been found. Worn parts are obvious. There should be no need to reproduce problems with tolerances or quality control because apparently we have plenty of examples of 320’s with these issues yet still no report exists documenting exactly what parts were out of spec or what tolerances slipped. Where are all these broken guns? Seems like it should be easy enough to determine why the gun is doing the thing it appears to be doing. Unless of course it’s not the gun.
I’m a Glock guy and I don’t like a lot about Sign despite it being a local company but until some engineer can document and demonstrate exactly what failed and why it’s all just noise.
The longer this goes on without hard facts and ecidence the more like some wokey cancel culture witch hunt it appears. The absurd YouTube vids by basement dwelling “experts” are just exacerbating the clown show of it all.
What model holster?
WHAT damn Video Proof of it going off in the holster??? Id like to see that video of it ACTUALLY going off in the holster with nothing or no one at all touching the trigger!! I say BULLSHIT is BULLSHIT!!
Also, the AIR FORCE arrested another Airman involved in the death of the Airman and charged him with VOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER!! Sounds to me like horseplaying was going on with the gun and THAT resulted in the firing of the weapon. The AIR FORCE should release ALL details they have from the investigation BUT AS ALWAYS THE DAMN GOVERNMENT has to keep truth from the people
I’ve seen some people really abuse guns without having to worry about them firing without fully pulling the trigger. Although it might be difficult to replicate in the real world, shifting the trigger by 1mm and applying pressure to the slide should not cause the gun to fire. I’d feel better with a gun that could handle some abuse. Not everyone who buys a car capable of 180 mph actually drives it to the limit, but they expect it not to fail if they occasionally take it to that limit.
It was not “shifting the trigger by 1mm” …. the trigger was 1mm past the wall, which means that the sear has begun to disengage. Regardless, Sig has a PR problem.
And a gaslighting problem. . . I’ll decide when the discussion is ended, Sig.
I made a reply, but it disappeared as the page refreshed without a waiting on moderation status. Does that mean it’s in moderation or was it so offensive that the system deleted it? I don’t understand this comment system setup.
It went to trash for some reason. The WP comment filter is a whole thing. We try to keep up with it and clear legit comments as quickly as we can.
Oh, okay. Thanks for the explanation. Maybe it views some IPs as suspect and sends it to the trash.
“He stated pretty clearly that ‘a YouTube video of some guy sticking drywall screws into a P320 trigger’ isn’t going to affect his business decisions.”
and he is correct for doubting that video.
I saw that video, tried it myself on my P320’s. It basically manipulates the thing to act as if the trigger was pulled – so its not really an ‘uncommanded’ discharge situation as in real life it would not happen unless ya just happen to jam a drywall screw up in the gun at the trigger to intentionally make it act as if the trigger was pulled.
Forgotten Weapons did a piece saying the same thing. It’s escaped control by now, and the reality of its safety is no longer relevant.
Just watched it. Couldn’t agree more. As he says, the P320 is now a “tainted product.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjEhgXAALL8
When you lose gun jeazus you are in trouble
People are getting injured with alarming frequency…and at least one person has died because of apparent issues with the 320.
So to make a to make a comment like “It Probably Doesn’t Matter Any More If the SIG P320 Is Safe or Not” is not only irresponsible…but outright stupid.
The sheer number of incidents involving the 320, should be enough for anyone, with more than 2 working brain cells to understand that there is something seriously wrong with the design….and it freakin’ matters, Danny.
JimB, The jest of the article is that the Sig brand’s reputation may have already suffered extensive damage to the almost irreparable state. The author is not making light of the damage that has occurred. Rather the author recognizes the damage and speaks mater of factual about the damage. At the same time the author points out the growing public opinion relative to not only the P320 but the Sig brand as a whole. Taken in context the author is in no way acting and or writing/composing in any form of stupid.
Of course time will tell as to how extensive the damage.
What Hush said. Reading is fundamental.
Makes it none the less stupid, Danny.
Climb back into your safe space and stay there. You seem afraid of everything.
Uh, gist, not “jest”.
how many incidents? How many people injured or killed? How many of those were negligence on the part of the human? How many were drop failures on pre upgrade pistols? How many involved crappy holsters? I’m a Chief RSO of a Gun Club. I pay close attention to firearms safety (for what I hope are obvious reasons) and I don’t know the answers to those questions. Do you?
Did you guys all miss the sleight of hand Sig pulled?
Look at the wording carefully: “The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear.”
Notice they’re not saying “without the trigger being pulled” anymore. That’s because they can’t defend that asinine statement in light of all the evidence. And those two things are not the same. Sig’s design fault, as I’ve pointed out dozens of times, was removing the trigger safety. Every other striker fired pistol that I know of has it. P320 doesn’t. And all the problems are with the P320.
All the other pistols have a safety that prevents the trigger from “moving to the rear” in incidental contact. The P320 doesn’t. Nobody’s pulling triggers on a holstered pistol! But the whole kerfuffle over “safariland holsters and lights and keys and whatever” has always pointed to one thing: for whatever reason, for whatever incidental contact, the trigger is being “moved to the rear”. And not necessarily by a finger. And not necessarily by negligence on the part of the nearest human.
Sig made a design choice with that trigger. It was a bad choice. It is a bad design. And now lawsuits, shot people, and a dead serviceman are all the consequences of that choice. And Sig’s handling of this has been absolutely atrocious; blaming the customer, refusing to recall a clearly drop-unsafe design, and shouting like Baghdad Bob is a textbook case of bad marketing that will rival Bud Light’s in the history books. Whatever happens to Sig in the future, one thing remains clear: they did it to themselves.
“Look at the wording carefully: ‘The P320 CANNOT, under any circumstances, discharge without the trigger first being moved to the rear.’ ”
They’ve said that before, its not new.
All striker fired pistols can be made to fire in the same fashion that Wyoming Gun Project did for the P320. Pull the trigger past the wall but not all the way to the break, then manipulate the slide, and the striker will be released by the motion of the slide vs the frame …. why? simple, the sear and trigger are in the frame, the striker is in the slide. As the trigger begins to be pulled all the various safeties are disengaged and then the sear eventually releases the striker to fire. Once the safeties are disengaged, all you need to do is get enough motion for the sear to release the striker.
PS a hammer fired gun has a big difference: all the parts involved in firing the gun are in the frame except for the firing pin itself. In a striker pistol, the equivalent of the hammer, which is the spring under tension, is in the slide, not the frame. This is, in fact, why so many “old school” gun guys felt that ANY striker fired pistol was unsafe. And it is why there are 2-3 internal safeties on all striker pistols.
I live how all these new names come rushing in to malign Sig whenever there’s a post about this topic who never appear to comment on any others.
Almost like there’s some shareblue type concerted effort of incel redditors to go after evil gun maker A while they can.
Show me the mechanical fault.
Odd yours is the only name that isn’t a regular poster. Almost like projection the post.
Rather queer……..indeed.
“without the trigger first being moved to the rear”
That’s not the same as PULLING the trigger. SIG has given themselves a (9mm?) wide loophole to claim their gun is fine- its just the stupid user and their stupid holster/t-shirt/underwear.
I have several SIG firearms- oddly, I haven’t gotten around to buying a 320.
I have seen only one video that makes me sit up and take notice. That of a cop who had bent at the waist adn as he was straightening up, the pistol had an AD. Nothing was near the piece and the weapon was holstered. I have read that striker fire pistols can have problems with certain holsters. I doubt I would want a pistol that was sensitive to the holster being used.
Can’t wait for the new 250th commerative Marine M18 to add to my current M18 carry duty sidearm. Love my SIG M18 and the years of great service.
As a small, rural, FFL, SIG’s are not in the price range my clientele is looking for.
That being said, I have sold two M17’s – and neither one has had any reported issues.
However, as of now, I don’t stock SIG’s, and my current inventory of SIG accessories will be pulled too.
s
My P320 X5 Legion has served me GREAT for 6 years. I even have some 1st place IDPA trophies with it. After 10,000+ rounds, EVERY type of ammo used ( even varieties in the same magazine ) it has never had one hick up!!
I KNOW….everything is perfect UNTIL it’s not. Meanwhile, my trust in this P320 is as high as any pistol I’ve owned.
Sad story out of F.E. Warren.
Abide by Jeff Coopers Four Rules of Gun Safety will take us a LONG way!!!
Regardless, the fact that the P320 has no trigger safety (unlike every other striker fired pistol), definitely begs the question of if the gun had a trigger safety, would any of these unintentional discharges have happened?
What matters is how Sig handled it. Their reaction was stupid, and arrogant. They COULD have gone full tilt and done a video of their own showing all kinds of drop tests and so on, but failed to do so.
Why? Because they knew there was an issue, and they blew it. Call them clowns all you want, but the internet is NOT something you can just ignore, and Sig blew it.
Like it or not, the UD’s did happen, with too great of frequency for it to be a one off, and why would there be a conspiracy?
I believe they tried to cover it up, and that alone will be their downfall.
The Management of Sig are fools, and they will pay for it.
I am a firearms instructor of over 40 years and have a distrust of all striker fired handguns, regardless of manufacturer, and the only manufacturer that I do not own is Glock after a personal incident that happened many years ago . I do have a couple of striker fired pistols but they both have manual safeties on them.
I have five sig pistols and my main teaching pistol is a 226 Legion which has over 15,000 rounds through it. I have been to New Hampshire to the sig experience center and have attended several classes up there in all my dealings with Sig they have always been extremely easy to deal with and personally, I believe that these incidents are down to human error , faulty holsters or where people have modified the pistol .
That is my personal opinion for what it’s worth. I will still continue to use all of my sig pistols.
These comments are my own…. and not from an official input of the LASD.
When the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department switched from issuing the Beretta 92F and 92FS to the S&W M and P, in 9mm, there were issues. It was a few years ordeal to make the switch due to the sheer numbers of personnel. And the switch was not mandatory, but voluntary. Some of the issues had to do with the outsourcing of parts for the pistol that were not within spec. They were replaced, fixed, etc. However, the trigger on the striker fired pistol was no longer the DA pull like the 92F or 92FS. As a result, I was told that in the first few years, there were 60+ accidental discharges. Some caused by operator error and others by having loose “items” within the holster. One AD went off inside a backpack that was not in a holster or pouch. Some personnel were injured in some of these AD’s. Issues were addressed through training bulletins, reminders, warnings, etc. The S&W M and P, 2.0, is still being issued these days.
How did S&W avoid all the criticism like Sig is receiving? Personally, I think the social media market and those that thrive on bashing companies from social media comments is a big cause of this topic. Concerned, yes. My personal P320 X5 works just fine and I handle it responsibly.
I’m still carrying a 1911 45acp, every since Vietnam.
This article was written on 4 Aug. On 8 Aug “USAF Characterizes Fatality at FE Warren AFB as Involuntary Manslaughter, Not Faulty M18 – Arrests Perpetrator” I’d like to see a follow up.
This has been my problem with the SIG 320 incidents all along. Can the gun go off entirely by itself, I don’t know. The problem is there are so many negligent discharges being portrayed falsely as the gun “going off by itself.” There is even a case of a guy in CO who shot and killed his wife, who was about to leave him, and is claiming it was the 320 that did it, not him.
https://www.shootingnewsweekly.com/gun-nation/air-force-airman-arrested-for-manslaughter-in-connection-with-shooting-initially-blamed-on-sig-sauer-m18-uncommanded-discharge/
I carry a Sig P365xl. I also have a Springfield Echelon which I feel is superior to the Sig 320 and Glock 9 mm. Makes no difference if someone wanted to give me a P 320, I wouldn’t take it.
There are many ‘safe’ guns out there to carry. I WON’T RUN THE RISK OF INJURY OR DEATH!
Most discharges are result of unsafe police handling. But cops are never wrong, even when they’re wrong.
Why take the risk. I’ve seen enough videos of what appears to be uncommanded discharges. I don’t know other than they said it was a P320. But it seems to be a flawed design and with that first crisis of dropping them and the gun going off and the terrible PR and Customer service responses and their ludicrous accusations that it was anti-gunners spreading the “rumors” about the 320 I’ll stick with other brands. Never was a fan of Sigs anyway.
As wikipedia reminds us, during the military’s XM17 Modular Handgun System competition, “The entries from Glock and SIG Sauer were down-selected as the two finalists of the competition. Once down-selected, the two finalists are supposed to undergo a second phase of Production Verification Testing (PVT) which includes a 22,500-round endurance test as well as environmental testing. However, the XM17 contract was awarded to SIG Sauer before these tests could be carried out. Explicit reasoning for this is unknown. . . ”
Smells fishy to me. Sounds like “shenanigans” happened. Allegedly. Who knows, the PVT may have exposed hitherto weakness(es) with the 320 (at that time).
One thing we do know – if the Glock 19X had been chosen, we wouldn’t be having this conversation now.
Dan, I don’t know if you wrote this headline, but it is, to put it mildly, insensitive. How can you say it doesn’t matter if a gun is safe or not? After all, human life could be at risk. As for the P320, too many are quick to throw it in the garbage. This is equivalent to being found guilty without a trial. Is it unreasonable to withhold the verdict until ample serious testing is done?
In the interest of transparency, I own a P320, original X Carry, have put over 1500 rounds through it and have never had a problem (except for a stovepipe caused by a limp wrist). It is reliable, comfortable and accurate.
IMHO, the p320 is not haunted. If you learn to properly assemble the pistol (hint: use the slide stop), rack the firearm after hitting the trigger wall and watch for undue wear it is a fine pistol.
I’ve had mine for several years in .45 auto. I love mine. I read this today. I had not heard any of the safety issues prior to today. I carry mine mounted in a magnetic mount in my truck when I travel. I have shot several hundred rounds and had not one mishap. As with ALL semi-autmatic pistols one must exercise precautions when using them. The military has tested this weapon extensively. I’ll take them at their word until oroven otherwise.
I have owned and still currently own several P320 pistols, from the M17and 18 to the P320 .45 and I can honestly say I have no issues whatsoever with any of them ! I have personally tried to get the weapon to discharge without pulling the trigger , have dropped it on hard surfaces, and have carried them in multitude’s of different holsters and have NEVER had an “accidental “ discharge! Plain and simple truth is “DONT PULL THE TRIGGER IF YOU DO NOT WANT THE WEAPON TO FIRE!!!!”