Michael Cargill was the lead plaintiff in Garland v. Cargill. Cargill challenged the bump stock ban and the Supreme Court of the United States stated the ban was unconstitutional. The decision did more than just rule that a plastic accessory isn’t a machine gun, it helped double down what a machine gun is by restating the statutory definition.
We had a chance to catch up with Cargill at the 2025 SHOT Show on January 22 and we talked about ATF, bump stocks, and more. Portions of this interview have been edited for clarity and readability.
Petrolino: I’m talking with Michael Cargill here today at SHOT Show 2025. Michael, how are we doing today?
Cargill: Man, I’m doing great. Doing great.
Petrolino: So, you’ve got, first of all, I guess we’ll run the clock back and we say you are the Cargill from the Cargill versus…
Cargill: Well, now it’s Cargill versus United States Government.
Petrolino: Cargill versus United States Government. Why don’t we talk about that.
Cargill: Which is the bump stock lawsuit. So bump stock goes back to Las Vegas, where the guy allegedly used a bump stock attached to a rifle to be able to shoot concert goers that were attending a concert here in Las Vegas. The government, at the time, decided to go through the ATF to actually ban bump stocks. I thought that was insane.
I filed a lawsuit against the federal government, which is the ATF, to stop them from doing that. Because the ATF, in essence, said they were going to walk into my house, they were going to take my bump stock from me, and then turn me into a felon if I did not surrender and or either destroy the bump stock. And I said, you know, something had to be done. I filed that lawsuit in federal court.
The case went to the first court in Austin, Texas, and we lost in that court. You know that case? We appealed the case to the Fifth Circuit. It was heard in front of a three-judge panel in the Fifth Circuit, and we lost that case because there were three actually liberal justices on that court. We then appealed to the entire Fifth Circuit in New Orleans, and it was heard by the entire court, all the judges on that panel – I think it was like 12 judges – and then we won that case. Then the government, the ATF DOJ Department of Justice, appealed to the United States Supreme Court.
Petrolino: Sure.
Cargill: It was heard in front of the United States Supreme Court. That was February of 2024 and the Supreme Court heard the case. The ruling came down on June 14 of 2024, which is Flag Day and the Army’s birthday. That morning was just a great day…a great morning to actually see the ruling come down on the Supreme Court’s website, that we won the case.
Not only did we win, we also got everything that we wanted. I got the Supreme Court to clarify the definition of a machine gun. The Supreme Court said that the ATF, an agency of the federal government, cannot create or write law. We got everything we wanted, and more. I love it.
Petrolino: Interesting. That’s perfect. That was a huge, tremendous win for liberty. What you did was a great service for all Americans. And this goes beyond just a piece of plastic that was allegedly used during that horrible tragedy.
What do you have going on now? You’ve got some stuff happening, don’t you? You and I had some words the other night and you said, “Like, I got stuff to tell you.” Let’s talk about that.
Cargill: The bump stock case, we had to continue on a little further, because I needed this case to go back down to the lower court once the Supreme Court ruled. We needed the lower court to actually vacate the bump stock ban and then make sure that the ATF returned everyone’s bump stocks to them in the entire country.
On several occasions, the ATF walked into the gun store to return my bump stock to me. I refused to accept them because if I had, I would have lost standing in the case. The case would have been done and there would have been nothing to make them return them to everyone else. I withheld, didn’t take the bump stock, made sure we waited until the judge signed the order, which he did. Now everyone in the United States should get their bump stocks back.
If there’s someone out there that the ATF has not returned the bump stocks to them that they’ve confiscated, they should get their bump stocks back, because it is now being ordered by the court.
Petrolino: Okay, and now what’s next for Cargill going forward?
Cargill: The next thing that we worked on was this mom and pop gun stores. the ATF came down with a “zero tolerance” policy, where they’re walking into gun stores, performing an inspection, and finding any small paperwork errors and deciding to shut down the gun store just for those simple little paperwork errors. They’re actually revoking their licenses.
We’re talking about mom and pops. We’re talking gun stores that have been passed down from generation to generation. The ATF walks in, then conducts an inspection…a customer has walked into the gun store, fills out the 4473. On that 4473 they put down “country,” instead of “county.” And because of that simple mistake, the gun store gets their license revoked and they lose their livelihood.
I got phone calls from gun stores all around the country, saying, “Michael, you’re in this case, the bump stock case, can you help us? You know, we’re a small mom and pop gun store, and the ATF shut us down. Can we get some type of help?” The only thing I could do was get with someone to file a lawsuit against the ATF, which we did. And, I’m glad I did, because we pushed it to a summary judgment.
The judge was getting ready to rule on the summary judgment, but before he was able to rule, the ATF came back and reversed their policy and went back to the original policy where they’re just conducting normal inspections and assisting gun stores in fixing those mistakes.
Petrolino: You pretty much had a victory without having to go all the way through the whole battle. That’s a big “W” right?
Cargill: A big, huge win because we’re able to get them to back down because the Biden administration did not want to take another loss.
Petrolino: Sure.
Cargill: Before he left office, they decided to back down and we won.
Petrolino: That’s awesome. One more question for you before I let you go. I heard a very interesting story about you. You are a firearm instructor, right?
Cargill: Yes.
Petrolino: You taught somebody that has no arms how to shoot?
Cargill: Yes.
Never say can’t…here is your Sunday motivation. I had the opportunity of training this young man this weekend in the rain. #PewPew #2A pic.twitter.com/cayKTog6Ew
— Michael Cargill (@michaeldcargill) November 12, 2023
Petrolino: I want you to talk a little bit about that, and how did that come about, and then how did you handle it?
Cargill: A guy came into the gun store one day, and he was trying to figure out how to get his license to carry a handgun. He wanted to be able to carry. He had no arms. No hands at all. He wanted to shoot.
I said, “Okay.” He asked, “Can I pass the test? Can you teach me how to shoot?” I said, “Sure, not a problem at all.” And so we worked on figuring out what firearm would work for him, because he’d already had the skills.
It didn’t take much from me, this guy, he had it within himself where he does everything with his feet already. We just needed to apply him using his feet to brush his teeth to using that to firing a firearm. What I did was we found the perfect gun, and worked with him on loading the magazine – because that’s usually the hardest part for everyone…
Petrolino: Sure.
Cargill: Loading the magazine. Push down, push back. We taught him how to do that work with him. We talked about how you put your feet on the gun and pull the trigger to hit that target. And boy, let me tell you, this guy was – he did it all by himself. He had that heart. And I almost cried at the gun range.
Petrolino: Michael, that’s a beautiful thing. What I want you to do is I want you to tell everybody that’s listening and tuning in, where could they find you? How could they support you? Plug your business. Plug everything you’re up to.
Cargill: Absolutely. So the business is Central Texas Gun Works. You can find me personally at MichaelCargill.com, I’m on X – formerly Twitter – @MichaelDCargill, and all my other social media is pretty much “Michael D Cargill.” Definitely check me out.
We’re moving on, because we need to continue on and put our foot on the gas all the way to the floor. Because we have two years to make sure that we get an a director in the ATF and get a comprehensive bill passed through Congress. That way we have some good stuff going forward and we don’t get another president that’s a “D” to actually change things and roll things back that Trump has already done.
Petrolino: Well, Michael, thank you so much for your time. You are a patriot. You are a true American, and lots of luck to you and everything you do.
Cargill: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. You.
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